Has there ever been a 'united Ireland'?
I am currently in a debate with a person who states that the republican claim to Irish nationhood is pure romanticism and mythology and not historically grounded. He claims that there has never been a united Ireland in history. I argued that the High King Brian Boru, in the 10th century (?) expelled the Danes from Ireland and united the various kingdoms into one Irish kingdom. While historians may debate the moral character of Boru (was he a brutal power-hungry tyrant etc) there is no doubt that he was the High King of all-Ireland. This is what my opponent wrote: Historically there has never been an independent, united state on the geographical island of 'Ireland'; there is no historical precedent for Irish nationalist / republican demands for a united Ireland. It has never existed and does not exist today. In reality, the Irish perception of themselves as a nation only emerged into the Irish psyche in the 19th century with the fusion of Catholic emancipation and Gaelic nationalism under Daniel O' Connell... To try and say Brian Boru united all the people on the island so that they thought they were one complete nation is pure fallacy.It the short time he was High King from 1002 to 1014 he was continually fighting with the other Kings on the island(hardly a sign of a united Ireland).Ireland at that time like the rest of the British Isles,was made up of a multitude of Kingdoms ruled by a multitude of Kings.If fact the idea of nationhood , especially in the British Isles is a fairly modern conspetion ! On another historical point Brian Boru did not free Ireland from a Norse (Danes as you call them) occupation simply because it was never conquered by the Vikings.In the last decade of the 8th century, Norse raiders began attacking targets in Ireland and, beginning in the mid-9th century, these raiders established the fortified camps that later grew into Ireland's first cities: Dublin, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, and Cork. Within only a few generations, the Norse citizens of these cities had converted to Christianity, inter-married with the Irish, and often adopted the Irish language, dress and customs; thus becoming what historians refer to as the 'Hiberno-Norse'.Rather than conquering Ireland, the Vikings, who initially attacked and subsequently settled in Ireland were, in fact, assimilated by the Irish. what do you all think?

Arguing that Ireland has been a united nation is indeed hard, and in my opinion, useless! What does it matter if it has been united in the past or not? Finland was never a united nation before it gained independence... So what? The people who live in said nation, their own culture, ethnic identity etc. is what matters. One could say: "Great Britain was never a united nation", well ofcourse they weren't, but now they are! Thus are independent nations created! :P

the dilemma is not whether Ireland was ever a united nation, but whether the all-Ireland political concept came long before nationalists/republicans. My view, from what I have studied is, yes, there has been a united all-Ireland concept since the 10th century (?) when Brian Boru became the first true "high king" (ard ri?) of Ireland. My opponent says that is not true.

I think I'd go with your mate on this one... Politically, I don't believe Ireland was "one" under Brian Boru. Well it depends... It was an island with warring tribes of same ethnicity and culture. But then again, which country was not a bunch of warring tribes back then?

Well I agree with you on your latter comment... I guess it's just how you look at it then. To me the argument is useless since it doesn't apply for any country, that was more what I meant.

Fenian, your opponent is using a common tactic employed by most anti-Republicans. As Naicou said, it doesn't matter if Ireland was ever a holistic entity- that has absolutely no bearing on the contemporary debate. However, I would argue that yes, Ireland has previously been united. There are historical documents dating from around the 12th century which talk of Ireland being one country. In otherwords, even if Ireland was ruled by numerous kings, there was a widespread conception of the people being united through language, culture etc- people felt Irish. I'll find the source for you when I have time. Also, the 'nations are modern inventions' argument is BS as well.

Thanks for your responses, people. I agree with your point, Vaclav, about Irish people having a unified "Irish" identity, I would argue long before the 12th century. If you could find that document, that would be great. I had also been under the impression that the Irish had a unified national concept (a nation) as early as Brian Boru in the 10th century, if not earlier. Wasn't it Boru that expelled the Danes? I guess you could say that, well after Boru died, inter-sectional warfare continued...

Inter-sectional warfare indeed continued, but in my opinion that does not undermine the concept of a unified national identity! As is the case in the history of all nations, there has been a unified ethnical/national identity, but allegiance has been given to feudal lords etc. Name one country in europe where this has not been the case!

Fenian, unfortunately I can't locate the key text, which was an excellent little book by a member of the IRSM. I recommend however Jim McLaughlin's Re-imagining the Nation State: the Contested Terrains of Nation Building, (Pluto Press: London, 2001)- an excellent expose of the colonial roots of your friend's 'cosmopolitan' position. Also, there are excellent threads on this forum about revisionism: http://admin2.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=5913&highlight=vipers